News just in: RTD has balls; Ianto gone for good

[filthgoblin]

terraswrath just sent me a link to this interview with RTD about the outcry over Ianto's death in Torchwood.

Can I just say upfront that the following article and my own thoughts might contain views that are marginal and controversial in this fandom? KTHX. However it seems that I'm backed up by the big man in this instance. And he is big. Believe me. I've sat next to him ;)

I have been calmly and politely standing my ground against some fans who are raging that the death of Iantos shows Torchwood to be "heteronormative". In my gut I didn't believe this to be true, but I don't like to go off half-cocked on something so I went off and did some research and this only reinforced my view. Rhys and Gwen are a heterosexual couple. They were behaving in what one could consider a normal way in spite of, one could strongly argue, very abnormal circumstances. But that doesn't make the show heteronormative. The term has been used to suggest that RTD never gives a gay couple [read: Jack/Ianto] a happy ending, but apart from Gwen and Rhys he hasn't given ANY couple a happy ending. No-one generally comes off well in a Torchwood relationship, but given the number of same-gender canon pairings in the show and the way those have been portrayed I don't think it could be argued that non-heterosexual lifestyles are given a marginal viewpoint or that there is any suggestion anywhere that they are considered to be less valid. Folks seemed more surprised that Tosh got it on with another human being than the fact that she got it on with Mary specifically. No-one batted an eyelid at the fact that Jack and Capt. John were so clearly lovers. The throw-away lines from Gwen in Day 1 that she expects Jack and Ianto to be together, wherever they are, makes me think that their relationship was very much accepted as the norm at the Hub. Furthermore, the series has certainly left its fair share of heterosexual pairings in its wake - Gwen and Owen, Owen and Suzie, Owen and Diane, Tosh and Tommy, Ianto and Lisa.

Those who stand by the heteronormative argument and have discussed this with me have asserted their view that when you total up the bodycount at the end of the seasons to date, the fact that the only remaining relationship is Gwen and Rhys [effectively making it "Straights 1 : Gays 0"] means that the show IS heteronormative. However, I honestly don't see a huge bias favouring opposite sex attraction when looking at all the relationships in the round and I think that boiling the normative nature of a show that's spanned three series down to a straightforward head-count at the end of one story arc seems a little simplistic in the context of a show full of pretty complex relationships.

I don't personally understand the attraction of Ianto as a character, but I do understand his fans are hurting and feel the show has let them down in some way, leaving them them grieving for someone they had cared about deeply. But I'm annoyed that some are choosing to use what I considered to be flawed sociological reasoning to get angry about this rather than accepting that joy and tragedy both form part of well-executed drama and congratulating the writers for doing such a good job of getting them so invested. The fact that the bodycount totalled one fewer straight couple in the context of the whole series does not make the whole show heteronormative. Also, as a side issue, I'm horrified by the number of people who seem to sneer at Gwen for getting the happy ending and seem to want her to suffer in some way in order to even the score. Being homo-positive but a raving misogynist is okay to some, apparently.

I know I'm on the losing side of this argument due to sheer numbers. I just wanted to get that out of my system. And now I've gotten it off my chest, I'd better get back to work.

Comments

[filthgoblin.livejournal.com]

Your rants are welcome here. As long as everyone stays polite, all are welcome to express views. It's very refreshing to discuss issues related to this fandom with someone who doesn't necessarily agree with me but doesn't screech me for being a homophobe, or call me just plain mental. And yes, I have had people in the fandom question my sanity because of my views.

I don't see what you see in Jack and Ianto's relationship, but that doesn't mean that either of us is right or wrong. It's all open to interpretation. And yes. I thrust our logical discourse in the faces of shrieking fanbrats until they shit rainbows ;)

[baka-sensei.livejournal.com]

...Seriously? People have called you a crazy homophobe? *flails* I just... GAH! What the hell is wrong with everyone? I guess that's the thing I don't understand about fandom- the trolling and the insults. I mean, I get really invested in characters (which you kind of have to if you're a fanfic writer or someone who really cares about a show) but never once have I felt the urge to be insulting or angry towards someone who was not insulting or angry towards me first. If someone just says, "Hey, this is what I think," how can you get mad? Everyone is allowed to have their own opinion. If they're not actively oppressing you or trying to harm you, how can someone saying their piece upset you? If anything it should encourage you to communicate with them, ESPECIALLY if they disagree with you. Shouting insults just comes across as lazy, IMO.

As far as the Jack/Ianto relationship goes, it's all very possible that I see what I want to see. There've been many articles/opinion blogs I've read where the person holds a point of view closer to yours than to mine, and I've had to admit that that reading of the relationship makes sense as well. That's what comes when you're dealing with the subjective reading of subtext and an actor's performance to inform you- nothing is overtly stated and you can read the same piece of evidence 20 different ways. Even when things ARE overtly stated in lines, they can be rationalized differently, or you could argue they come from a different emotion on the character's part, or the character could be outright LYING... That's what makes shows so interesting, though! :D

[filthgoblin.livejournal.com]

I agree that this is what makes the shows interesting. No one person's view is the right one. I don't claim to be correct about my interpretation of relationships because it's just that. An interpretation. What I will continue to state that I'm right about is the fact that this show in particular is demonstrably not homophobic or heteronormative because I have researched the terms, the tropes of both and can state evidence to illustrate why neither are applicable.

So there.

If it's alright, I'm gonna add you as a friend. It's nice to have someone around that I can chat about these issues with intelligently.

[baka-sensei.livejournal.com]

Yay! New lj friends! Of course it is alright to add me. I shall add you back. It's especially nice to have friends whose opinions differ from yours- I learn so much more about stuff when I'm not just preaching to the choir. :D

I feel like people throw the terms homophobic and heteronormative around in the same way that people will call Obama a fascist and a socialist in the same breath. They don't really know what the terms mean, they are just using them as a word synonymous with "bad" that makes them sound smart (or at least they THINK it makes them sound smart). When you question those people further, it turns out that they have no idea of what the term actually means. Honestly, if you have a strong opinion about something, you should know your reasons for having such a strong opinion so that you can articulate your argument. If you can't articulate your reasons, why did you have a strong opinion in the first place?

But then, I'm a philosophy major and I guess the whole, "Know your argument forwards and backwards" is just kind of ingrained. It surprises me how much of the population feels totally justified in acting on a gut reaction or emotion without first analyzing why they feel that way. Or how many people will have an opinion on a topic they have little to no knowledge of just so that they can have an opinion. What happened to everyone that they suddenly think it's not okay to just say, "I'm not sure," or "I don't know," when faced with a question on an issue instead of bullshitting some sort of opinion? It's just sloppy and makes me despair for humanity.

[filthgoblin.livejournal.com]

You and I may have different views on some issues, but seem to have the same approach to addressing them. I'm going to enjoy having you around :)